Here’s a question for the day: in MMOs, how large and “active” would you like the cities to be?
In most of them, cities are actually pretty static and deserted places, more like an abandoned movie set than an active community. However, that does make it easier to 1) maneuver through the streets and not become distracted/lost, 2) find what or who you are looking for, and 3) highlight “important” NPCs and other PCs, as opposed to those that have nothing to directly offer to the ongoing activity of the character.
For my part, I’d like more background activity in cities. Perhaps CoH has spoiled me a little bit there, because it really stands out for me now when a more traditional MMO implementation of towns and cities is presented… they seem even more lifeless than they used to, to the point of being a little creepy.
DDO is another example of a city that largely feels okay, in that case, because the town is small enough and so central to play that there are always PCs moving around bringing the scene to life.
I guess the basic question is, are most people happy with cities in MMOs as they are? If not, what changes would you like to see?
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October 22, 2007 at 6:48 am
brackishwater
I’m trying to think if I would be more immersed in the world if games like EQ2 or those that you mention had this. What immediately came to mind was the Assassins Creed video. It would be pretty damn funny to be running through Freeport (EQ2) and knocking people over with my horse.
LOTRO had some active NPCs in Bree but most were the static questholders you speak of. I specifically remember a woman punching a brigand in the stomach over and over because apparently he had killed her son or burnt down her fields.
I think that more NPC background noise adds to the immersion if they are with purpose. IE – make those NPCs who have nothing for you direct you to NPCs who do, tease you about upcoming quests from them, or offer background lore.
In regards to player characters in cities, this tends to be a major source of lag for me. While I like to see other players, I don’t like it when it makes a detrimental impact on my gameplay.
October 22, 2007 at 7:32 am
Talyn
In the Perfect MMO of my dreams, “major” cities would be HUGE. I’m talking GTA/Crackdown huge. The trick is to have enough interesting content for all the various player types to do in cities that are as large as wilderness zones. And yes, with all the NPC’s doing their own thing. GTA and Crackdown both do this well but they’re just single-player titles. LOTRO is great having all the NPC’s running around (even if they’re stuck in a Groundhog Day loop, reliving one day of their lives over and over for the amusement of the rest of us) because it makes the world feel alive rather than the dead, soulless world of Vanguard. That needs to be on SOE’s Master List of things to finish someday.
October 22, 2007 at 8:47 am
Lars
I liked the way COH felt, with people walking and driving about. Personally I’d rather have an MMO where NPCs went about there lives. I’d rather most of them really did NOT want random strangers walking up to them and saying “Hail!” I’d rather have them call for the constables if you walk into their home and start looking around without permission. Single player RPGs like the Ultima and Elder Scrolls series have been doing things like this. I’d like to see modern MMOs start to.
October 22, 2007 at 10:01 am
Talyn
Yeah, never made much sense to me that if we’re forced to play the “good guys” in an RPG, why are we also forced to enter the homes of random strangers and loot their belongings? Burglary, anyone? Not exactly the stuff of heroes. If we have to do it, then fair is fair: NPC’s should be able to randomly enter our houses and steal our stuff too! LOL
October 22, 2007 at 10:35 am
tipa
@Talyn — in console RPGs at least, it is common for NPCs to give you permission to take whatever you can find. I’m just starting FFIII on the DS and the NPCs are very, very giving.
As far as MMOs, I can’t think of any “good” NPCs that have loot to be stolen
Good == Poor, I guess.
EQ2, Freeport and especially East Freeport, is very busy with PCs, being the transportation hub it is (I imagine Qeynos Harbor would be the same in Q-Town). Though the rest of the city is more lifeless. There’s usually a few people running around the villages — Big Bend and Longshadow Alley usually have several people running around on their own business.
WoW’s Ironforge was the best MMORPG city ever. I understand it is dead now. Orgrimmar and Undercity and even Stormwind had nothing on Ironforge (though Undercity deserves mention, it was pretty cool).
October 22, 2007 at 12:19 pm
Aaron
I like a combination of big cities, small towns, mining colonies and everything else.
I thought EQ2 did a good job with Freeport. Sticking with just two starting cities helped keep the playerbase together and focus players on the rivalry between Freeport and Qeynos (or would have helped if other elements of the game had supported that rivalry). But I would create a number of non-starter cities and NPC communities, some of which could become hubs of gameplay and even PC homes (allow players to settle there).
I wouldn’t include any NPCs who did not represent content in any way other than simply being there. NPCs can have more empathetic potential when their particular actions are not copied on every street corner (like citizens of Liberty City all running wildly in fear, in CoH… it’s not so cool after you’ve seen it the twentieth time).
I agree that the lag caused by a game trying to reveal all the gear and visual customizations of every player in a busy area is frustrating. If I remember right, EQ2 overcame this by offering players a slider in the advanced Graphics Settings of how many other players could be fully revealed at the same time. If possible, I would make that self-adjusting. So many PCs within a radius of the player’s character would be fully revealed; then PCs outside that radius or in excess of that number would be shown in placeholder gear (possibly different placeholders for different classes). To prevent this from presenting PCs the player actually cares about in placeholder gear, any character the player clicks on would be fully revealed.
The last thing I’ll say is that I would make towns and cities capable of more intense adventures inside them. Urban combat, for instance, can really feel different… especially if the game includes a cover system and jumping. I agree that NPCs should generally ge angry if you enter their homes uninvited, but imagine doing so because you’re being chased and the angry NPC becomes involved somehow in the situation (perhaps only by shaking and screaming while the two intruders go about killing each other in her home).
Plus, I’m a fan of true adventure, the experiences which the player doesn’t seek out, but is found out by and must react to. Generally, combat content and intense stuff like that would be found in particular sections of the city and would only occasionaly bleed out into other areas. But my cities would not be inviolate. They could be raided by orcs, attacked by an angry dragon, placed under martial law by zealots (ever read The Wheel of Time series?), and experience a plethora of similarly uninvited content (which isn’t to say player actions couldn’t have had a hand in it…like being the ones to piss off the dragon).
October 22, 2007 at 2:08 pm
Bildo
Call me impatient, but I want my cities to be both active and relatively small… or rather just easy and quick to navigate. I don’t like to spend a lot of time galivanting around, I’d rather be whacking foozles.
October 22, 2007 at 2:23 pm
Talyn
I didn’t like any of WoW’s cities in terms of being cities. Like much in WoW, there was *so* much lost (and wasted) opportunity. So many buildings with nothing inside, taverns will no purpose whatsoever (actually did anyone ever RP in WoW anyway? Dueling and cybering with tweenage boys pretending to be girls in Goldshire is *not* RPing) they all felt more like abandoned forts at best, not the majestic cities they were made out to be.
On the flipside, during one of my burnout/nothing to do phases, at least IF was circular because I spent the majority of the time running in circles in kitty mode while chatting with guildies and friends. I’d have had to actually pay attention in Stormwind or Darnassus to navigate. All ya have to do in IF is not fall in the lava trench.
October 23, 2007 at 3:51 am
damianov
Heh, as I expected… almost as many different answers as people. Ah well, you can never please everyone, right?
Just to clarify a few points on my own vote: while I prefer my cities large and complex, that’s because I kind of expect them to be place to adventure in, as well. It’s my Thieves Guild/Lankhmar dream/vision expressing itself, I guess.
I waffle back and forth on “background” NPCs… they somewhat fall into the “uncanny valley”, but I do miss them when they aren’t there. Stationary ones in particular irritate me… at least have them pace back and forth or something, good grief.
I would want to greatly expand NPC roles and reactions: I’d love to set it up where if you ask an NPC where something is, there would be a fair chance they would literally “group” with you and lead you there, similar to what a friendly PC might do. (That is, assuming you haven’t pissed that NPC off by rifling thru his underwear drawer looking for loose change, of course.)
Later on, I’d want to add twists to such situations… it could be a plot hook (ie the friendly NPC gets attacked while leading you through the streets… want to explore why?) or part of an existing adventure (the “friendly” NPC leads you into an ambush, dropping some hints along the way that could tip you off, to be fair).
Anyway, that kind of thing would be the direction I’d want to go.
October 24, 2007 at 12:46 pm
tipa
This reminded me of Ray Bradbury’s short story, “There Will Come Soft Rains” [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/There_Will_Come_Soft_Rains_(short_story)] about a high-tech house that keeps things bright, fresh and clean for a family who exist now only as silhouettes on the wall after they were flashed by an explosion in a nuclear war which killed all humanity.
That’s what MMO cities without players in them feels like to me. Giving those NPCs jobs and tasks and daily routines would be so pointless. Without players, what is their purpose?
There’s a reason why the vast majority of the NPCs just stand around. They are there for players to find them easily.
October 24, 2007 at 1:42 pm
damianov
I always loved that story. One of his true classics, IMO.
-=-
While I understand what you are saying, let me take it a step further for the sake of illuminating a point.
What is the purpose of having NPCs at all? Just have the quests delivered to the player by a disembodied voice, and vending machines and trash bins strategically placed that allow players to cash out their loot.
Why bother giving them names, or dialogue… NPC_43785 serves the purpose just as well, right? Story? Why bother… bulletpoint lists of tasks serve the player just fine.
And frankly, why bother with any models for NPCs, or the world at large for that matter? If the players are the only elements that count… everything else should just be expressed as simple polyhedrons to mark their placement.
-=-
I fully agree that NPCs without players serve no purpose. There is no reason to waste CPU cycles tracking an NPC’s specific route from his shop to the local tavern every evening if there is no player there to see it, and several good reasons not to bother. No arguments there from me.
That is not the same as saying, however, that creating a more lively and dynamic setting for the players to interact with does not serve a purpose. Jobs and tasks and daily routines are elements that could/should build further on the naming of NPCs (Fippy Darkpaw of EQ fame comes to mind), wordsmithing of quests, the detailed 3D models, and so on, in terms of getting the player to invest emotionally in a setting, a “world” if you will, as opposed to PLing through a “game”.
That’s my take on it, at least. YMMV, of course.