I’ve actually been working on this one for a few days, but various issues have popped up to prevent me from getting it done… so, in the interest of getting _something_ posted…
Prompted by various discussions of death penalties around the blogs over the past week or so, apparently starting here, continued with commentary at Eyes Like Ours, and I first ran across it at Anyway Games.
The original question was “Why (have a) death penalty?” The answers in the thread at MMORPG, ably summarized in this news post, basically revolve around creating tension and preventing “exploits”. All fair reasons, for the most part, but somewhat unsatisfying to me personally, seeming perhaps a bit incomplete. Are the penalties currently associated with losing/failure, before the death penalty is added, really so minimal in the first place? Would there be exploits if “death” was really death in the first place?
A few musings below the fold…
Now, I am hardly an individual that completely eschews any concept of a death penalty. I am a proponent of the nuanced integration of permanent death into certain styles of these games… not exactly the default position of someone who is pining for “easy mode”.
On the other hand, I do understand the original question. Combat as implemented in games today can (on occasion) already carry significant penalties for failure, depending upon the circumstances: consider the time and resources spent penetrating to the core of a dungeon, reaching and engaging the “boss monster” in combat, only to lose and be kicked completely out of the scenario, knowing that the entire challenge will be repopulated and that all the resources consumed the first time around will need to be replaced. That’s not a “penalty”?
On the other hand, there is the “Well, I’m done for the night. Bah, it’s a 10 minute run back to town… that group looks like it can kill me quick, I’ll just self-rez at my bind spot in the town chapel” scenario.
To my mind, there are several factors that make the second scenario more likely than the first in MMOGs as implemented today.
First, there are relatively few games where significant in-game resources need to be spent to participate in most combat endeavors. To keep the gameplay highly active, “consumables” such as food and drink, ammunition, spell components, and the like are often largely minimized in cost and effect, if not completely abstracted out of the game. There were sufficient complaints in UO and EQ about the inconvenience of consumables that many titles largely reduced their influence, tho few ever completely removed them… DDO being a recent example of an implementation casting back to the older resource-heavy paradigm, WoW still having ammunition and repair costs, and so on.
There are also balance issues involved in consumables: keeping the core sword-and-shield warrior role from having a significant financial advantage over other, potentially more resource-heavy roles (archers-arrows, magicians-spell components) can be a factor here.
The lack of “consumables” reduces the cost of engaging/participating in combat… a net positive for any game that focusses on combat as it’s core activity, but problematic in terms of building any tension over the possibility of “losing”. It is just basic human nature to care more about something that you perceive a need to “pay for”, as opposed to something provided for “free”… that logic basically applies here, I believe.
Virtual costs aside, time is the true cost paid in these games, of course. This is another example where providing convenience gets in the way of creating tension over the outcome. It is generally made pretty easy to find a decent fight in relatively short order in most of these games… again, a net positive for a game where fighting is the intended core activity. On the other hand, that means that any particular loss, sans the application of a significant death penalty, is pretty unimportant to the player. He can find another fight easily enough, in no time at all, really…
You can probably see where I’m going here. Death penalties are in part necessary because, in these games that are highly focussed on combat, the costs of initiating and participating in combat are minimized for the player’s convenience. Minimizing the barriers to entry reduces any tension related to the question of success/failure: death penalties restore some of that tension.
Carrying that logic further: if you were to create a game where combat was not the core activity, but just one of many possibilities, presumably you could potentially have higher costs associated with entering combat, and a reduced need for a death penalty. (I’m not saying that’s guaranteed, just a possibility.)
That’s all I’ve got done at the moment…






9 comments
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July 7, 2007 at 4:58 pm
Aaron
In Halo, the player lose 2 things by dying: (1) time; (2) opportunity. By opportunity, I mean that there are often enough dynamics to make fighting the same group of enemies a different experience from one go-through to the next. When you die, you return to the same enemies coming from the same general direction, but the new fight can involve different A.I. actions and different tactics on the part of the player.
Perhaps dynamics like this could eliminate some of the need for MMO penalties aside from time and shame of defeat. I’ve always wished the locations and behaviors of MMO NPCs were less predictable. If dying meant that you might not be able to find that NPC again so easily, or that the NPC might employ different tactics against you or be surrounded by different circumstances, then dying might have more of a sting. At least, it wouldn’t feel like you’re merely repeating your last attempt.
That’s an interesting question about whether non-combat systems could affect the feel of combat penalties. That’s what you’re suggesting, right? I’m not sure what to think about that… maybe if I chew on it a while.
July 8, 2007 at 12:32 pm
damianov
The impact of non-combat system would be indirect at best, tho. In essence, it would presumably create choices for the player in terms of how he/she spends his time. By offering multiple options, the costs to participate in combat could potentially be increased, because then you are not (presumably) locking some people out of playing the game due to the cost, only out of playing the “combat” portion of it, at least until new resources were gathered thru the other systems.
In some ways, it turns the tables on the existing paradigm. Commonly, combat is the default activity, which provides the resources to unlock other activities like crafting and mercantilism/trade.
My own little experiments are actually more in the realm of largely disconnecting rewards and penalties from the life/death, win/loss event entirely. The dynamics of systems where participation offers permanent rewards (knowledge, experience) offset somewhat by temporary penalties (injuries, distractions), regardless of win/loss record, intrigue me. Not sure how well it will play with the wider world, tho.
July 8, 2007 at 1:30 pm
PressPosts / User / onyxparadise / Submitted
http://pressposts.com/Personal/Death-penalties-partial/
Submited post on PressPosts.com – “Death penalties, partial”
July 9, 2007 at 7:43 am
JuJutsu
This is only tangentially related to the topic but what the heck. I’m currently playing LOTRO with my wife. I decided [perhaps a poor decision...] that my first goal was to get a rare title. LOTRO has titles that are granted for making it to certain levels without being defeated [the game equivalent to getting killed]. First title at level 5, last at level 20. I wanted the level 20 title. This pretty much has made it a permadeath game in that when I got defeated I had to delete the character and start over. I’m currently at level 19 1/2 and hopeful.
At any rate, what came as a surprise was how much my playstyle changed and how much less fun the game became. I avoid all groups, especially PUGs [although I do duo with my wife]. I avoid areas with any chokepoints that make it possible to get swarmed. I only fight mobs of my level or less and usually it’s less.
I’m really looking forward to playing a fun game again.
July 9, 2007 at 7:52 am
damianov
It’s definitely tough to take a game tuned to the concept of “death as inconvenience” and try to turn it into more of a “perma-death” game.
The situations you are currently avoiding, for example, might not exist, or might not end in “death” as easily in a game that was actually designed for perma-death. The tuning of mob strength would be different. Heck, the entire advancement paradigm itself would probably be different.
Bottom line: using an existing game design to evaluate the perma-death concept is like strapping surfboards to a 747 and pushing it down a ski slope. Not exactly within _anyone’s_ original design parameters…
July 9, 2007 at 11:38 am
Jonathon Stevens
Response at Pre-CU (http://precu.wordpress.com)
I gotta figure out this pingback crap one of these days…
July 10, 2007 at 3:48 am
damianov
Odd… pingbacks are automatic, I thought. I checked the moderation filter, just in case… nothing there either.
There is a setting in the dashboard, under Options-Discussion, to the effect of “Attempt to notify any weblogs linked to in the post” that controls pingbacks, I think… might be turned off by default, not sure. Something to check, at least.
July 10, 2007 at 1:37 pm
Pre-Combat Upgrade
[...] 2007} Death Penalty? What about Kill Penalty? This started as a reply to Damianov at Voyages in Eternity and was quickly turning into not only a lengthy reply, but a topic changer at the end so I decided [...]
July 12, 2007 at 7:14 am
JuJutsu
“Bottom line: using an existing game design to evaluate the perma-death concept is like strapping surfboards to a 747 and pushing it down a ski slope. Not exactly within _anyone’s_ original design parameters…”
Lol. It’ll take a while to get that image out of my head
Thank goodness, I finally hit 20 and have gone back to my normal playstyle…wondering whats over the hill and finding out that it’s something that wants to eat me